Grey Squirrels

What about the foot and mouth/blue tongue outbreaks? Thousands of animals were killed then to save human lives.. Is that not avoiding natural selection too?

In my opinion we should be trying to save our native species.. I personally don't mind looking at a Grey Squirrel but and the end of the day they're destructive disease ridden vermin. It's not as if we can round them all up and ship them back to America where they came from.

We should be destroying Spanish Bluebells as well!

I agree Rydeboyz. Grey squirrels are not indigenous to Britain whereas Red Squirrels are and they are being wiped out by the Greys. Also, the wildlife in the rivers of Britain are being depleted by the aggressive American Crayfish and the Mink. If we could round 'em up and send 'em back it would be great, but that's obviously impossible. I agree with selective culling for the good of indigenous species.

Too many of any one species harms the natural order of things.
I ran an estate in the 60's which was over run by squirrels, they were everywhere, destroying trees, fruit & vegetables, small birds & eggs, getting into the house and buildings, damaging electric wires etc. The owner asked me to cull them, I shot 240 over two years and we still had sqirrels. The mother of any birds or animals keeps as many of her young as there is food for. Where do you stop, rats, mice, badgers, foxes, rabbits, starlings, pigeons all classed as vermin, all carriers of disease and all do untold damage in the natural cause of their livelihood.
And I haven't started on pests and diseases.

Grey squirrels also carry a virus which does not affect them, but it kills red squirrels

Sometimes it becomes necessary to take measures to control an introduced species, because without a natural predator they will over populate and can squeeze out native species. The natural predators of the grey squirrel are the Lynx, Mountain Lion and Coyote.
The US and Canada are also having problems with introduced species, as have many other places. Australia and rabbits, Guam and snakes etc.
Right now locally we are having a problem with Asian Carp in the rivers. They are predatory and are killing off native fish plus when engines on boats come close they leap out of the water and at average 15-25 lbs can do a lot of damage and injuries.
So it requires that in a global environment, for the protection of native species and also people living in the areas it is necessary to control the population of introduced species.

Rydeboyz - foot and mouth/blue tongue don't kill humans!!! lol

Grey squirrels carry squirrel pox - I saw a programme on it recently and it is a horrible disease that looks a bit like myxamatosis (spelling?) in rabbits. Absolutely horrible. Greys are not native to Britain and it is entirely down to the arrogance of humans that they are here at all. Humans therefore should make a mense. I like them and would miss them if they were gone, but if they could be got rid of, I think that that would be the right thing to do. Although I think that it shoudl be a concerted effort - just kiling a few here and there just makes it an ongong problem and results in more destruction in the longterm than if they could all be got rid of at once.

Just for the record, I DO NOT think that badgers, foxes or starlings should be culled (as Dr b seems to be suggesting) - they are our native wildlife and I do not think they deserve to die just because they cause an inconvenience to car owners or farmers with animal husbandry issues who regard their livestock as walking pound-signs.

Sorry for the rant guys.

No, Sid,
I was NOT advocating that all things should be culled, but if an animal or bird becomes too prevalent they have to be controlled, we can't allow one species to over-run the environment to the detriment of other species. I certainly do not support fox hunting but foxes will kill for the fun of it, a chicken coop with 40 or 50 hens will be wiped out at one visit, but only one hen will be taken to feed the family. Badgers now spread TB, and I love Badgers.
I don't support Duck shooting, pheasant and partridge shooting which is mainly for people's pleasure.

Sorry, Dr b, but I still have to disagree with that, with one exception and that is where an animal's natural predators are missing from the environment - like deer and wolves. But otherwise, who are we to decide when a native animal has become too prevalent? All our native species existed here long before humans arrived and there was nobody here then to decide that one or other species was too prevalent and yet they still managed to survive despite our absence! I try to avoid being drawn on the fox-hunting debate as we all know it is an absolute minefield (except that I will say, as one who has kept chickens in the past, that appropriate husbandry is far move effective than trying to wipe out an entire species - I think you will agree). With regards shooting......a difficult one, but on balance I think I'd rather eat a wild-reared pheasant than a chicken raised for 40 days in a stinking shed shoulder to shoulder with 20,000 odd others.....but I can't understand how people could derive pleasure from the actual act of killing..........

Sorry for the rant again! It's just I have strong feelings on this subject (hugs for Dr b to show no hard feelings!!!)

Corrected. I was thinking of BSE and assumed the other diseases would also have adverse effects if they were ingested.

Wohlibuli: I would personally find it hilarious if I got hit by a fish leaping out of a lake! (if I survived to tell the story).

It might give you a good laugh after you got out of hospital, but try explaining how you got that "black eye" to your friends! : )
Check out videos on youtube if your interested.
It is unfortunate that such extreme measures can become necessary, but that is the sad and hard truth. It will only become worse until people get it through their thick heads that it is NOT a good idea to import a non-native species ANYWHERE!
Ta dum! end of my rant! : )

Oh, Sid,
Thank you so much for the hugs, I need all the hugs I can get these days.
No problems. There is nothing wrong with a good friendly debate. We all have our own opinions, lets just agree to disagree. I promise you I am an animal lover.

Agree Doctorbob we should be able to hold opposing views and respect others entitlement to hold them .

The history of the introduction of the grey squirrel is quite interesting and much has been made of its destructive nature and its potential to carry disease .

Many theories surround this and sadly many cruel inconsiderate people use these to justify their maltreatment of them.

IF such animals require culling then it should only be done by licensed individuals in a humane manner.Poisons traps snares should be banned and those caught using them prosecuted as they also harm mame and kill many other animals.

Shooting , whilst not something I could do , is actually the kindest way .

Why was the grey squirrel introduced ?

Prior to the First World War the Red was considered a pest - given that many agricultural and forestry and estate workers were lost during the War and means of controlling them reduced , why was it necessary to introduce the grey ? Surely squirrel numbers should have reached epidemic proportions during this time .

There is a theory that concerned landowners fearing their estates and properties would be overrun whilst the workforce were away - insisted methods to control vermin be introduced.

Chemical warfare was being trialled during the First war and many believe the Myxamatoses strain was first used on Red Squirrels - the Poxvirus Greys are supposed to carry but not suffer from closely mimics the awful effects of this ...

Myxamatoses was developed to be genetically diseminated to future generations as obviously no point culling present generation , if no one available to cull offspring.The effects would be temporary and of little use.

The Red Squirrel does not bury acorns and beech nuts as it prefers coniferous forests and pine cones - when so many labourers failed to return from the war , the grey was introduced for its habit of hiding broad leaf tree fruits and subsequently forgetting them.

In the last hundred years Squirrels far more responsible for tree planting than man.

Of course no one suggesting they should threaten our reds to extinction and no go areas for greys should be maintained.

Being described as vermin however is too easy and ' justifies ' ill treatment of them .Having made the error of introduction they do at times require control but not by people who express their own cruelty by inflicting suffering upon them.

theres me just joined the other day and I thought hmmm........ I know I will put a photo of that grey squirrel that visits the garden in my blog ,never thinking that this one more squirrel photo would tip the balance ,im gonna dye him not kill him. I was in the tufty club you know.

Rydeboyz - I had a giggle at the fish thing too - the thought of boating down a river and suddenly being hit in the face by a flying 25 lb fish....wonder what the boss would make of that one, calling in sick..... x-D

Dr b - awww anytime! Glad we can still be friends! LOL

Bb - quite right - culling should only be carried out in the most humane way. The rest of your comment is very interesting... So, were the greys introduced to deliberatly spread the pox to the reds, or was it for their habit of planting tree seeds? Or bit of both? Saw a picture the other day of a red with the pox (as I said above) - looks very much like myxamatoses - I didn't know it was closely related. So where did myxamatoses come from I wonder? Was it a man-made thing?

(I do hope Cyril and family don't read this.....)

Sorry all as you can tell bit of a thing of mine too ... yes Sid , myxamotoses a chemical cosh designed by man to pass strain on to off spring which is why we as children still saw rabbits suffer with it , years after it was introduced.Cant believe this widespread use on rabbits was not trialled first

Greys introduced for their planting habits as so few men available to work on the land.

Trying to discover if Greys brought poxvirus with them when introduced from US but little evidence of condition in US and articles relate to assumption that greys carry the virus and reds contract it.

Suspect man had a heavier hand in this ' virus ' than the squirrel.

Goodness.........I really can't believe the arrogance of mankind sometimes - never fails to amaze me how stupid and cavallier man can be.

I still see rabbits with myxamatoses :-(

Well dont think it too big a leap to imagine it being used on squirrels first is it , Sid ? Esp when given the circumstances of greys introduction . Quite handy to be able to blame the immigrant .... now where have I heard that before ?

What a mixed bag of reaction.
I agree with BB, I can't call them 'vermin'. It's not like we are sooooooo over run by the little creatures that we - as humans - should intervene with such drastic measures such as having their heads blown off with a gun, poison them so they suffer pain or trap them and scare the living daylights out of them.
Put your hands up if you personally have a problem with them in your gardens destroying things and spreading disease all over your prized plants and lets just see what a 'real' problem these creatures are.
Personally I find slugs and snails are far more destructive but do we see the government or shotgun wealding folk amongst the flowerbeds taking action against them....erm?

I think you will find that the destruction done by squirrels is more likely to be done in the home as opposed to in the garden. More damage is done in US homes by squirrels then storms and flooding every year. They chew through siding and roofing and electrical wiring and can cause fires. Not to mention the money paid for the repairs. I am not advocating the poisoning or trapping of what here is a native species. But there is no getting past the fact that they are very destructive and with a lack of natural predators can become a big problem. The 3,000 dollars we had to spend to repair damages a few years ago was an unexpected expense.
Many native species in the US and Canada have become overpopulated because man has killed off their predator, just ask anyone from the Northeastern US about deer.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not just a black and white issue, and that those who advocate control by man should not be depicted as demons.

I will just say I am a lover of ALL wildlife but I guess this is out of all our hands anyway. I've just read that it is thought the cull will use poison to reduce numbers over the next 3 years and is being jointly organised by the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) and the Forestry Commission, after consultation with various groups, including English Nature, the National Trust, the RSPCA and the European Squirrel Initiative. You would hope that they know what they are doing!

Sid....Cyril and family not privy to any of this..still blissfully nesting,and safe with us !

Mine will be kept safe too but not seen him/her for months, probably nesting also. Looks like the ones affected will be the ones in close proximity to the Reds.

Right, I'm gunna grab my shotgun and go out looking for slugs - who's with me?! x-D

Bb - your theory is mindboggling and certainly sounds feasible. Glad to hear Cyril & co are safe and sound in their nest!

I'm with you on the slugs, Sid! Load 'em up and let's get out there - it's been raining so there's bound to be a few we can get rid of tonight!

Hey Sid, I'm with you on the slugs just so long as we dont use slug pellets because of the harm to the hedgehogs and thrushes etc.!

Nice one Dawnsaunt - could they also harm squirrels too? I never use pellets, we've got 3 cats and the pellets could also harm them!

I curse my squirrels for stealing all the peanuts and wrecking my holders AND for chewing through potted bulbs :-( but I still like to see them cheekily doing it and take photos of them when I get the chance. I'd love to see a Red Squirrel but would hate to see no greys either.
Canada Geese are also considered vermin, did you know that they can't be released back into the wild after being taken to a rescue centre if they're injured, because of this classification? (I only found this out recently from a wildlife programme).
I personally consider rats and feral pigeons to be vermin but I can understand how people feel about 'pests' if they are affected greatly by them. However, that's life and we humans need to remember that we do not have the right to control everything and, even if we try, nature will always find a loophole!

Not sure if squirrels would eat slug pellets - I know they can kill the hedgehogs if they eat the slugs that have eaten the slug pellets - same goes for thrushes with contaminated snails.

ReeBee: I didnt realise that Canada Geese were classed as vermin - in contrast, they say all swans belong to the Queen!