When you can gently cup one in your hand and with only light pressure it comes off, not sure about those varieties but possibly september/october time.....its been such a funny weather year though......

The usual test is to place a cup shaped hand under the apple and lift it slightly.

If the stem breaks easily from the from the banch then it is likely to be ready, but if it doesn't just leave it a while longer.

Do this test periodically on three or four apples at various points on the tree, i.e. until you find that the bulk of those you test pass the test, then you can harvest the crop.

Natural fruit fall is also considered to be an indicator!