back from lampeter

I know how you will be feeling, San (((hugs))) As you've discovered our sons are very self-reliant...makes you feel redundant when dinner with new friends and a social are better alternatives than having a "last supper" with mom and dad...lol

Joe seems to be settled in really well and you'll be sure to find he's a changed lad when you next see him. Being away from home is a good experience for our kids....and for us too. You'll find a revised routine at home and before you know it....you'll be doing just fine :)

Your photos are lovely....we often drive into North Wales, living so close, and I just melt at the serenity of all the landscape. You got a good photo of Llanduddno promenade too. Glad your time away was enjoyable (well most of the time!). Welcome back home.

It looks a lovely place-- what course is he donig there?

thankyou so much Wlass, your so right and i will be fine, he wants to prove he can go it alone he told his dad lastnight on phone, and im sure he will do great, cant wait for xmas to see him again lol, glad you enjoyed the pics to ;o))
thanx pam he is doing archioligy and anthrapoligy,dont think iv spelt them right though lol ;o))

lol sandra i allways use spell ck. sometimes it carnt understand wot i written lol. love the pampass. got 6 of em i love em. all pics are lovey, know wot its like to miss ur boys . so hugs from me too x

lol cristina and thanx, i love the pampas grass to but no room here ;o) x

i have 2 mini ones u poss cud have 1 of those. never get bigger than 2ft very pretty . will get a pic on soon .

Sandtra be proud that you have bought Joe up to be so independant and confident Im sure he will be very happy there and it does look a lovely place. So although you are feeling very tearful at the moment as all Mums do when there youngest flies the nest, take comfort in the great upbringing and support you have given him which gives him a flying start to his adult life ;0),

thankyou so much cristina would be lovely but only if you arent going to use it yourself ;o))
thankyou for them kind words carole, im getting upset reading them lol, im so gratefull joe has turned out as he has especially as his brother has so many problems, thanx again ;o))

Well aren't we all glad to get to this part of the "Joe" story. It sounds as if he will be just fine Sanbaz. When my sons left home to go to uny I wanted a full report each day. It is very difficult to stand back and wait for the call. John still phones often, Mike when he feels like it. They both live in London, but a phone call makes you feel they are in the next room.
Best wishes
Linda

glad you enjoyed Wales Sandra.. im a week ahead of you with the empty nest syndrome its just so dammed peacefull here....with rosie and now lilly gone its just wierd....i do get my boys home on the weekends though which helps....
Lampeter is such a lovely town the uni looks homely...I have never been to Llandudno it looks great on your pics...will have to get there one day....chin up..christmas will be here before u know it...:-)

hi linda and thankyou, nice to hear im not alone with this and you have all been there, im going to call him later just to see lol, be glad when the internet is on then i can see him on cam, we both have that in our laptops so will be nice to see him and chat ;o))

hi sandra and thanx again lol, yes llandudno was very nice , lovely coast and a pretty town, i like the countryside more than baz, he said nothing to do lol i like to walk and enjoy the views, he likes to drive round in the car and stop for a coffee and ciggy lol, your right xmas just around the corner sandra ;o)) x

It looks buitiful. Wish him a god time.

Lovely pics, looks like a good place he's gone to. I know how you feel only too well, I've not forgotten - when I left my first son at uni in Bristol, I sobbed for nearly 48 hours - I felt like I'd left a baby in the woods...
Not so bad with the second one, much easier - and regardless of how I felt, they both wanted just to get on with their new lives, didn't want their old mum cluttering up the place - which I sort of expected, so that didn't upset me. But its hard to let go... specially when you visit and discover they're living in disgustingly filthy conditions and don't give a fig about it...all those lessons on how to clean a loo completely wasted... I used to take my own teabags, cup and milk to avoid using anything of theirs. And once took a younger relative with me to visit - she was absolutely appalled and shocked, and I was rolling up with laughter... they've grown out of it now though, much cleaner.

I've been reading up on the town & it seems it's not very far from where Hywel lives!

The University there is very old indeed! I hope your son settles down quickly. We had to leave our kids as they wouldn't leave us! Our two boys continued to live at home with us while we lived in Spain. One did go to Uni, in Madrid, but did only one year, even then it seemed he spent more time at home than away! Our daughter, although married, followed us to the UK. They eventually got divorced. She lived with us here for about 3 years! Now she lives with her partner & their daughter in a village 5 or 6 miles away. So you see it was us who had to fly away from the nest!!!

cheers Hanne i will ;o))
lol bamboo cheered me up reading your comments, joe is very tidy and clean but will see if it keeps up now im not there to watch over, i will take my own cup etc just to be sure lol ;o))

Lovely blog, Sandra, both our children went to University, lad dropped out after a year though as realised he didn't have the passion required for Architecture. So, having driven from Worthing down to Plymouth many times I certainly didn't miss the travelling ! He was a fairly clean and tidy student compared to our daughter and friends though ! My husband refused to enter one of their flats in case he caught something. You're very lucky to have Skype/texts etc. to keep in touch. Don't fret too much over Joe, it's a new and exciting stage in his life with so many new experiences to embrace, he'll soon find the people he wants to be with. Keep smiling, there'll be a degree at the end of it !

so funny balcony, never heard of the parents having to fly the nest, just shows they loved you and not wanting to go ;o))
it isnt far from hywel he told me so im hoping to visit at some point if we get there again in the future, my hubby isnt as keen as me, not into quiet small places and least of all walking in the countryside lol,;o))

cheers shirley i cant blame your hubby, when we went to say goodbye i had to divert my eyes as all their doors were open and half naked lads dashing about getting ready in the morning haha, baz found it very amusing hahaha,
joe is a easy going lad and makes friends easy and im hoping he enjoys the uni work to and passes with flying colours, but even if he doesnt or cant cope im still proud that he has tried ;o))

San....these posts are really bringing up memories and laughter to me :) The tales of dorm rooms/student accommodation and their mess....oh dear! Been there.

Our son moved even further....Uni (only an hour away from us so not too bad), moved to B.C. in Canada for 3 yrs., home again for 5 yrs. and now he's gone back (just one year ago) to Ontario in Canada. Him moving to Canada the first time was enough to give me the push to learn how to use a computer/internet so it had its rewards I guess! lol

I had a chuckle when you said you were going to phone Joe tonight....there's every chance he'll be with his friends when you call...don't be surprised if he is. We'll keep you smiling as you adjust. It's amazing so many of us have the same heart tugs....who'd be a mom, eh? (see all the hands go up...me, me...)

Hi Sanbaz this first time is the worst I cried buckets when leaving mine at Uni. But then it gets easier. Although we continue to worry about them. Its a very true saying to let them go ensures they come back. Christmas will come very quickly and you can become an expert texter! My daughter flies to the USA by herself next month and I am already worrying.

I feel a group hug coming on.....(((GOY moms)))

yep and I should be in the same position next year. so group hugs are a good idea.

He couldn't be in a nicer part of the world, and being small is ideal, I am sure you both will survive and come out stronger for it.
Now you have a quiz to do young lady and only 24 hours left....see my latest blog!!

Hi Sanbaz.... pleased that you got Joe settled safe and well, it looks a lovely place(it's only 80 sleeps to Christmas)......thanks Whistonlass for the group hug..night

Good luck to Joe. I'm sure he'll settle in and do well in his work.
It must feel strange for you now Sandra and it's natural for you to worry, but it is also natural for children to leave their parents so try not to get too distressed.
I used to get annoyed at my mother when she worried about me lol, and I was always glad when she was out of the way. She clung to me sometimes and it made me want to get away from her. I suppose she found it difficult to deal with but I also found her clinging difficult to deal with aswell.

I'm not familiar with Lampeter really but it's only about 35 - 40 miles from here. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip though.

~~And another tip Sanbaz - wear trainers or boots when you visit - more protection when trying to rip the soles of your shoes off the kitchen floor as you try to walk across it. That's assuming you don't actually trip over the piles of crumbs, odd bits of pizza and rolls of dust... None of it you want between your toes, that's for sure;-)))

Lovely blog San, I've got all this to look forward too.....I think you always look great in your pics :-))

Hi San, agree with Annella, you look great, not ill at all! Reading your blog has brought a tear to my eye...just remembering how I was when rachel went two years ago. It's hard at first.....but it gets easier and you'll just be getting used to your own space when he comes back! Sounds like he makes friends really easily though and that is a huge benefit for him. Photos look lovely...I'm with Baz...I don't think I would have liked to study somewhere so small.....but I really hope he loves it, and it certainly is a lovely place for you to visit when you feel like getting away for a weekend! Thinking of you San....Karen :))

Drc726 - your comment reminded of when our daughter flew alone to Oz ... a friend from Sussex University was to meet her at Sydney Airport ... you can imagine how I waited for her text to say she'd arrived safely ! They don't realise the worries that Mums have ... all a big adventure for them! She had a fantastic time ... travelled all over the place since then. : o )))

Wlass poor you your son moving to canada even worse, iv that to come, joe wants to go abroad when he finishes uni but guess these days more families are spread apart either in this country or abroad, its normal life these days isnt it ;o(
thanx denise for you comments and sorry you have worry to with daughter flying to the states, what are we like, im sure everything will be fine for you to ;o)
hugs all round and you can have yours now sea ;o))
thanx dotty,, ooow quiz will get to that soon i hope, cant keep up at the moment, mind not working ahaha ;o)
cheers mavis im counting hahaah ;o)
thankyou hywel im trying not to be to clingy with him dont want to get on his nerves lol, iv had a chat online about 5 mins ago and all great, he`s ebjoying cooking and being with new friends, no work yet lol, easing them in gentle lol ;o))
lol bamboo will jot the good advice down hahaa
aww thanx annella not to bad for 50 lol on a good day ;o))
cheers karen for lovely comments and yes joe makes friends very easy always has, he`s loving it all and says his new friends are all great, helping eachother ;o)) it is a lovely place but very quiet, i feel calmer knowing he is there and not a big city ;o))
shirley we mums will worry even when we are gone lol
thanx again everyone for lovely and funny comments which help to cheer me up, hugs all round ;o))) x

San...having an online chat works wonders for the old heartstrings. :) Pleased to hear Joe is settling in really well and making new friends. All will be well.

As for son going back to Canada...no one to blame but myself....he was born there and we brought him and his sister to the UK when he was only 5 yrs. old. He loves Canada and he's happy so what more could a mom & dad hope for their son. x

it looks a lovely place sandra..... glad joe is settling in.....with his new friends...

thanx Wlass, your son was young when you came back wouldnt think he would have remembered it would you, but must have, iv never been but i would love to, i love the usa and been to niagra falls so thats the closest into canada lol,
there was a man from toronto at lampeter with his son, they live in dorset now and love uk but said he does miss home at times,, do you go on holidays there Wlass x

cheers holly he`s fine thanx and as long as i can chat to him im ok ;o))

Lovely place to go to uni! Hope Joe gets on well. I remember our eldest's 1st day at uni (Brum), Joy was in tears all the way home. But that was 9 years ago and youngest has also been and returned since then.

I'm so glad to hear I wasn't the only mum sobbing post dropping first born at uni...

thanx Tog, and seems joy was worse than me lol, i did manage to keep the tears at bay to look around llandudno haha ;o))

San...I'll pm you as I can't imagine others want to hear the tale of how we ended up in the UK or the adventures of our lad...lol x

okidoki Wlass x

we always like stories Wiston.........

LOL, Pam, I was thinking the same !

lol girls

I don't want to get chucked off GOY because I don't talk gardens!! I've sent a pm now....forgot to add in my L-O-N-G epistle, San....we came over from Canada in 1983....

I could cut and paste pm's ladies! lol

lol Wlass, i think its nice to have a change of conversation once in a while and most are the same, you just pick and chose what you read i say, got msg and sent one back

of to read your reply, San.... :) What are we like? lol

lol ;o))

Glad to hear Joe has settled in so well and so immediately Sandra, although a bit disappointing for you at the time how lovely that he was so quickly drawn into the social life. Lovely pictures and lovely scenery too. When my daughter went to Dental College for 3 years in Whitechapel East london I was appalled at the squalor of the Victorian tenement that passed as student accommodation. The building looked like something out of Jack the Ripper films but she survived!

lol lily thats what i thought when i saw joe`s room being in the old building, but he`s made it is home and happy with friends and the uni,, showing off his cooking skills to lol, wonder how long that will last hahaha,
im calming down a little now after having the umbilical cord cut but will miss him terribly, so counting the weeks till xmas now and never thought i would do that, thanx again lily;o))

Lampeter really is a great place to study, I graduated last July with a 2:1 BA degree. Out of bed, dressed and into lectures in 10 minutes, no excuse for being late in class! I had the room to the right of the doorway in your first picture in the quad

wow thats great mooncat, nice to hear someone who has been there, i must tell joe,i see you lived in the area to, joe is so settled already and lots of new friends, what did you study there and hope you have found something after all your hard work ;o))

I studied IT and Media, mostly video and digital photography (it's is excellent for that), and website design. As I'm 64 now, I would rather leave a job to my son who has a BSc in ITbut hasn't yet found a permanent job. I plan to do voluntary work for the time being, as I also look after my disabled wife.

The Archaeology Department there has an excellent reputation, I'm sure Joe will enjoy it, but warn him about spending too much time in the Union Bar!!

wow thought you were younger mooncat not that age matters when doing something you enjoy, sorry about your wife it must be all go for you, and wanting to do voluntary work to, must have plenty of energy ;o))
yes i heard it has a good reputation for what joe is doing, he`s pretty much got his head screwed on with a brother with lots of self inflicted peoblems, doesnt want to go out drinking or anything else which is damaging to health, he does have a drink but is carefull, enjoys life without all that, loves cooking and being with friends and also knows when he has to work hard which im proud,

Hi Sanbaz, I am sure your son will settle down well in Lampeter. My grandfather was a student there in 1889! I felt sad when my firstborn fled the nest - just had to tell you she went to live near you in Goosnargh (?) near Longridge! They lived there for 3 years before moving even further away to Luxembourg :( But we still see them regularly.

hi rachelsmum, joe has settled there right away with lots of new friends and also seeing a girl tonight lol didnt take him long to check out the talent did it hahaha
fancy your granfather going there all them years ago, how wonderfull, its a lovely place,
and must have been upsetting when your daughter first moved this way, nice area Goosnargh, and now in Luxemburgh, nice for a holiday for you i bet ;o))

lovely to hear Joe has settled in so well San.. Lilly is the same...she is home this weekend but only to visit Rosie who is home from Abberystwyth uni having had her appendix out there on wednesday.....what a nightmare.... but she is getting over it...

Oh dear Sandra...I hope your daughter Rosie has a speedy recovery (coming home from uni to home comforts will surely be helpful to her). So you've got a houseful this weekend with returning daughters :)

Sandra, my OH had his appendix removed 3 weeks ago via keyhole surgery and he's 57 ! Best to have this op. when you're younger. Wish her well from us. : o ))

hi sandra so sorry to hear about rosie, i know what thats like, think its about 20 years ago when i had a burst appendix, i was so ill as i had peritinitus,, spelling rubbish lol, but im here to tell the tale, but what im saying is its awfull pain with that and she is better without it, hope she has a speedy recovery sandra ;o)
shirley hope hubby is ok to, not nice but he will soon get back to normal and feel better for the op ;o))

shes fine thanks and enjoying being home and the centre of attention....Shirley..such a tiny scar but such a lot of pain..hope hes better soon...
at least i got to stay up at Abberystwyth for a couple of days.had to sleep in Rosies halls...omg how do they sleep...heating...tiny cell...window opens about two inches...noise (feshers still over enjoying themselves). but the town is lovely and i went for some great walks.
and yes Whistonlass i do have a housefull this week end with them all home + boyfriends and girlfriends....:-)

Sandra, sounds like you've got your own 'halls of residence' right there this weekend...lol

Yep, appendix ops not fun....but who'd want peritonitis and it's consequences? Speedy recovery to her...glad she's enjoying the attention...it does have perks :)

sandra we popped into abberystwth on our way home and its a lovely town isnt it, much buissier than lampeter, lots of students walking about, sounds like your really enjoying them all being there sandra, nice one ;o))

Hi San ~ sorry I missed your blog I’m just catching up. I hope Joe is settling into uni life and you are adjusting to a quiet house. Now tell me, how many times have gone and sat on his bed? None of mine went to University ( I think Steve put them off he is still doing Open University courses at 53 he’s never stopped since leaving college at 18). I had one son go into the Army at 16 one went into the RAF at 17 and the other went to live in Porthcawl at 18. So I can understand how you feel but it won’t last long, soon you will see what a great time he is having and what a great big bag of washing he has for you when he comes home for holidays!!

hi sue and thanx, its nice to know others understand, dads dont seem the same , iv sat on his bed every day and with tears to mostly lol, he`s having a great time and settled well with lots of friends, started his fencing class tonight so lots of things to do in spare time to, lots of partys lol but i know he will work hard, its his dream, cooking and cleaning he is good at to so hopefully no washing comming back with him , i can understand your worry with your lads going into the forces, not a good age we live in and such a worry for any parent with children joining up and so young,
anyway im doing ok with the empty nest syndrome i think, calming down lol
take care sue x

Pleased to hear Joe is doing so well and you are getting used to him being away. My boys are now 35 and out of the Army although Bosnia changed him :L. 25 out of the RAF now an IT boffin! and 29 Just Married and living back in Romsey So I survived and so did they :0)

and bet you wonder where all those years went sue, i keep wondering that myself, just passes by without us even thinking ;o))

To right San and you know what it means...... were getting old!! They all came round tonight for dinner 3 hours of utter chaos and now I feel like 90! All I can say is thank god for the dishwasher...lol!

lol sue, but you wouldnt be without them, wonderfull ;o))

Sueb....you gave me a laugh talking about 3 hours of chaos, feeling 90 and thankful for your dishwasher! Sounds just like me after a visit from our 4 grandkids with mom & dad.

I'm usually a heap afterwards but would be so unhappy if they didn't come and we had no chaos. They do go home :) lol

Having read all about all these mums and their kids leaving home as teenagers.
How did you all do it. I mean ship them off?
Mine is qualified as a Mechanic, but works as a greenkeeper and groundsman at the local golf course. He also worked at a lawnmower place whilst doing his apprenticship, so that comes in handy. He turned 25 yesterday and has no intention of leaving home. He once left home 4 yrs ago to live with a lass, but he didn't like the bills and was back after 5 months, minus the lass. No girlfriend at the min, but lots of friends. they all crashed a party at the uni in Lampeter a while back, a free for all, but since then it's students only. So they all steer clear of lamp. and hit aber regularly. Mind you on the odd occasion, even tho' worse for wear, he still creeps in like a mouse. His bedroom sounds like the dorm stories above, but he keeps my Landy on the road. And we regularly have 4-6 20-25yr olds stomping about in a bedroom.:-<

Read this thing in a magazine at the doctors yesterday about empty nest syndrome - psychologists say it takes 2 years to get over each child leaving, so you're certainly not alone, Sanbaz! Not sure that's such a cheering thought really, I mean if you've got 3 kids, and they all leave one every 2 years for uni, that's 8 years of grieving, for heaven's sake...
and 2ndhand, I don't know how others did it, but I made sure both of mine picked a sandwich course at uni, which includes a year in industry. They both went off to Bristol (I'm in London), did their year in industry and, as expected, were offered jobs by those companies - so I moved to a one bed flat, and that's how I did it, lol! So basically, you have to make sure they go a distance to uni, not near home, and that they get offered work while they're there... But I grieved for about 4 or 5 years nonetheless...

I handled it in stages....son first went to get his degree but within an hour's drive of home so we did see him a few times during term and he came home on his breaks...that was for 3 yrs. Then he relocated to B.C. (where he was born)...that was harder to adjust to for me and stayed there until the work dwindled and he had to come home to roost (finances sometimes work that way!...home to mom & dad... lol). He stayed home again for about 5 or 6 yrs. and now he's moved back to Ontario in Canada. This was the hardest parting of all because we reckon he won't ever return to live in the UK.

I am glad I was able to handle "empty nest syndrome" in little stages as preparation for this last move. He's been in Ontario now for just over a year and seems settled, hoping at some point to be able to move back to B.C. with his partner.

I had been hospitalized for 4 months at the beginning of 2009 and our son helped me prior to my admission and for a few months after my discharge so I did get dependent on him. It was right for him to break loose and become independent for both of us. He's still such a blessing to us and we keep in contact via internet :)

My lad spoke to few students when he was 15, He decided at a very young age, that he was not going to start work with a huge debt to pay off. So opted for car mechanics. There's no way he'd go to uni now!
He's 25, enoying life (debt free he says) living at home for minimal rent (which we're not about to change), gets his laundry done and his evening meals cooked. Mind you when he moved out with the 'her', (she was ok, it was her mother I couldn't get along with) He still bought his laundry home, collected his lunchbox every day, (He got put off her doing his sarni's, when she gave him raw bacon chops as ham!) and he came home for a couple of meals a week on the evenings she spent 'quality time' with her mother. So, there wasn't much change when he did move out. But now he's home, I keep telling him, the application forms for prospective girlfriends and (especially) their mothers are now collecting dust.:-)

Oh poor you, 2ndhand - I love my 'boys' (both over 30 now) more than life itself, but I wouldn't want to still be living with them!

You've certainly got a son who likes the luxury of living at home, 2nd hand. Had a laugh that you're telling him the application forms for prospective girlfriends and mothers are collecting dust. We do spoil the lads, don't we? lol

thanx for your input 2ndhand and like bamboo says sometimes you have to take steps to make sure they dont return after a certain age lol but at the moment i do miss joe, but we text most days about something which has happened to either myself or joe , also phone him weekends and look forward to him coming home for xmas :o) not sure about two years bamboo, i will be grieving again after 3 years when he goes off elsewhere and not back to blackpool lol

hi w.lass, I guess we're stuck with him for a while, The earning capabilities round here are very low. But then he pays back ten fold keeping my landy on the road. When I collided with a full grown tractor. The insurance co. wanted to write it off, but My old boy got it fixed and back on the road.
He often jokes, when I get old in a couple of years, he'll pick a nice home for us:-). All his friends round here still live at home. They are all qualified in manual jobs, but havent the where with all to go it alone yet. They're all having too much fun and besides they are all early 20's going on 12:-)

That is so true, 2nd hand....when work is scarce and kids aren't ready to strike out on their own. It's good that you are able to give him a home and he is able to help you out with all the mechanical side of keeping your land rover on the road. Gotta watch those tractors! :)

You're right there Sanbaz - all that grieving, I dunno, first there's the adjustment to losing your independence, and then 20 years later there's the adjustment to letting the little beggars go...

hope your doing ok San...Joe will be home next month...:-)

i'm still missing my girls soo much...i have only one vote on the remote control now as im out numbered by my husband and both the boys....but the are great helping out around here...when i nag enough....hopefull they are all going to sort our roof out next week as i think we might get a break in the weather.
maybe one day i will want it to just be me and julian...but for now i will be glad when all my babies are back in the nest for christmas...

hi sandra im ok thanx but like you still missing joe as you are your girls, going to call him soon as he was resting this afternoon lol, must have been out lastnight,nice you have the boys at home to help even though you have to nag a bit lol, sorry about your roof to, what a pain for you, baz hogs the remote at times but if i really dont want to watch the same i take myself off to tv in bedroom or mostly just come on GOY haha, nice to see you sandra :o)

both the girls come home from uni and have a afternoon nap, i think its the only way they can survive...lol
these dark evenings have given me a chance to go one here. nice to see you too San:-)
I get to see Rosie on tuesday. i'm going up to abber to see her performance. i'm not realy sure what it is but they are being judged as part of their degree so everybody has loads to organise. she is doing the lighting for it thats why she was so keen to return after having her appendix out.

I feel for you moms who are at the beginning stages of learning to "let go" .....I remember those times so well and I really hope that your Christmas visits go really well and until then you can enjoy the communication you can have to keep updated on how the kids are coping.

Sandra...enjoy your daughter's performance in Abberystwyth...she must be feeling better after her op.

good luck for rosie on tuesday sandra, you wouldnt pop in and check on joe for me would you lol, have a nice time :o))
jacquie thanx, it takes time to ajust doesnt it and im sure your right, i talk or text joe quite alot so makes it seem better for him also as he is missing home and its so quiet in lampeter, but safe so thats good :o))

I think this is the only long blog I have ever read every word put into it!!! I am neutral, not having any kids to have empty nest syndrome over. The feelings that mums have when their chicks leave the nest are so heartfelt. I'm glad that 2ndhand has brought up the subject of apprenticeship and manual work. It evens up the forum slightly. I started my degree the second year of the OU...took me seven years of chasing tutorials and endless essays. The summer schools were memorable. End result Batchelor of allsorts. Very enjoyable.

thankyou Dorjac know what you mean about long blogs, 7 years wow but sounds like you enjoyed it and glad this brought back some memories for you, and your right manual hard working jobs are so important but alass they are making them accademic also which i think isnt good, some people are bright enough to go to uni and some like myself are hands on, but the goverments ruined that by making all trained jobs something we have to have cetificates now.i dont agree with it at all,common sence is sometimes a better thing in some jobs and a skill by hand only. better stop now or hubby will be calling me victor again lol